It's a fine line, as the ensuing discussion over this post indicates.
The story in question reminds me of the time several years ago now that my father and I were watching some television news magazine piece about--wait, here it is: the Marines caught participating in the controversial ritual of "pinning."
We had a debate about it. I thought the practice was sadistic and counterproductive; I didn't see how Marines torturing other Marines was conducive to building unit cohesion, to name just one of my objections.
My father's argument (which he would not retreat from no matter how I came at him, my father being what you might call "obstinate," or "Irish") was brief and simple. It went something like: "The Marines are the best soldiers we've got, and I don't care how they got that way. Whatever they're doing, obviously it works. I don't have to agree with it, I don't have to like it, but I'm sure as hell not going to tell them to change anything."
I still don't think he was right, but I think what I can appreciate is that effective soldiers aren't trained to make nice. They're not diplomats. You wouldn't send an ambassador onto a battlefield anymore than you'd send a drill sergeant to Camp David.
Expecting soldiers not to exercise undue force, expecting them not to torture their captives, expecting them not to go overboard--that's all right and just; but expecting them to have the same efficacy at the war for hearts and minds as they do for the war they're trained to fight seems dumb to me. Let them do what they do best, which, when you strip the sugarcoating from it, is kill people. Pardon me if I prefer to look the other way when the more honest of them admit to sometimes enjoying their jobs.
Posted by Ilyka at February 9, 2005 07:01 AM in hell is other peopleI wanna buy General Mattis an adult beverage of his choosing. And I think that he would be okay with that -- even though I'm just an enlisted dependent. Having said that . . .
While I agree that the baser nature of soldiers is, indeed, "killing people," nine out of ten generals will tell you that you don't say "HOT DAMN, LEMME SHOOT SOME MORE BAD GUYS!" at a press conference.
It interferes with that whole "hearts and minds" thing.
In reality, I'm not so sure that we need to win hearts and minds. Do the f'n job and get the hell outta there. A few hearts and minds to help with local intelligence -- and that's all we need.
But of course, this is all part of the pussification of the U.S. (See also: Political correctness.)
And that's just my humble opinion.
FWIW, I haven't held much stock in anything Patterico had to say since he didn't get a thinly-veiled dick joke. :: eyeroll :: I don't trust anyone without a sense of humor.
Posted by: Margi at February 9, 2005 09:12 AMYou had to say "pussification" on my blog, didn't you, Margi? You just HAD to.
Posted by: ilyka at February 9, 2005 09:20 AM"The essence of war is violence. Moderation
in war is imbecility." -- British Sea Lord John Fisher
When I got my crow (Petty Officer 3rd Class) every non-commissioned officer in my unit lined up to punch me on my new rank badge. This was in Operating Room Tech school and there were 14 NCOs in my unit plus three instructors. After that hazing we went to the club and I bought everybody drinks. Throughout the evening I got popped every so often by other NCOs arriving at the club who heard about my promotion from my compatriots (who were more than happy to spread the good news to all and sundry). Normal function returned to the arm several days later.
I wouldn't trade that day for the world.
Posted by: Jim at February 9, 2005 04:21 PMI wouldn't trade that day for the world.
Men are crazy. Not that I want you all to sit around giving each other pedicures, but that's just bizarre.
Posted by: ilyka at February 9, 2005 06:14 PMSorry about using that word. I guess I didn't have to go there, huh?
As for Jim's comment - and yours regarding the promotion stuff - it can be summed up with the catch-all 'boys are stupid' line.
Then again, I'd probably PAY to see those guys give each other pedicures. But I'm quite aware that I'm weird like that. Heh.
Posted by: Margi at February 9, 2005 11:00 PMIt's difficult to explain why getting repeatedly punched in the arm is a good thing. I guess it goes back as far as primitive initiation rituals for manhood. In this case the ceremony of pain was a welcome into an elite brotherhood. It was not done with malice. Every punch was followed by congratulations. There was enormous respect for taking the hits "like a man".
Yeah, I guess it probably does come down to 'boys are stupid'. ;-)
Posted by: Jim at February 10, 2005 10:54 AMMargi,
I thought we understood each other on that. I can't find the original dick joke -- seems like Jeff has redone his site -- but I thought we got it figured out here. My question about it was actually meant in good humor, too . . . it seemed like you were saying something provocative. I just wasn't sure exactly what.
On the topic of the post: unfortunately, some wild woman has tried to convince people that I have a problem with killing terrorists. I had a problem with the specific wording of a quote that I thought a general shouldn't have said in public. I want this guy to go out and kill the bad guys, but given his poorly worded comments, I think it's best that he refrain from making public comments in the process.
From what you said above, I think you agree with my point of view, but have perhaps been led to believe that I think something different -- such as I don't want our military men to be tough. I have never said any such thing.
Posted by: Patterico at February 16, 2005 02:32 AMDude. Really. If you think for one skinny minute I take any of this blogging stuff seriously, you are sadly mistaken. As for your opinion, my opinion and Miss Harris' opinion -- well, we're of course all entitled to them -- but you know what they say about opinions, right?
I'm sorry if, yet again, I have offended you.
Cheese and rice.
Posted by: Margi at February 16, 2005 04:53 AM"Yet again?" You never offended me before.
I hate to say it, but I don't understand what "cheese and rice" means. I'm terrified (no, not *really* terrified) that it's somehow another dick joke that I will show myself to be humorless if I don't get . . .
Glad you don't take any of this too seriously. You can never be too careful, because some folks do.
Posted by: Patterico at February 16, 2005 05:04 AMCheese and rice. Say it out loud.
It's my way of not swearing on someone else's blog.
This is, I believe a perfect example of how the flat, monotone of a computer screen simply cannot convey that my tongue is almost always planted firmly within my cheek.
Posted by: Margi at February 16, 2005 05:25 AMOkay. Anyway, like I say, you had never offended me before.
Posted by: Patterico at February 16, 2005 03:39 PM