I have to say, I've always struggled to understand why feminism and choice are so intrinsically linked. Where feminism is a female issue (hence the catchy name), being pro-life or pro-choice is an issue that seems to be as linked to women as to men.

While naturally you have the debate that it's the woman's body, it's her choice and all of the peripherals that go with it, to me the discussion about being pro- or con- abortion is an issue that's ab it more centered evenly between the sexes (indeed, like feminism should be only then I guess we wouldn't have anything to discuss anymore.)

Is it simply because the issue involves pregnancy, a predominantly female issue? There are many female issues-women are more overwhelmingly pet owners than men are, yet you don't see a hot topic on spay and neuter your pets being associated with owning a vagina. We also have cheaper car insurance but again you don't see blog posts blasting out about the fact that we are discriminated against just because we get in fewer car accidents.

So yeah- I ride the fence on this one as I don't see why feminism has to be so bound to pro-life/pro-choice. I don't see it about a woman being a sole owner of her body, that doesn't seem to be the central issue that encompasses this whole debate of abortion, which is wrapped in politics and duct-taped with religion. In the pro-life parades you don't see them crusading with posters about: "It's not your body, you're just leasing to own!" You see them screaming out about morals, hell, the rising costs of anesthetics or who the hell knows what they screech about.

Sorry if I have not delivered somewhere in between. I am jet-lagged and thus privvy to being very ambiguous today.

Sorry if I have not delivered somewhere in between.

No, no, are you kidding? It's excellent. If I had you moderate my comments this would be a much more civil site. Unfortunately, I would be the first person banned.

. I don't see it about a woman being a sole owner of her body, that doesn't seem to be the central issue that encompasses this whole debate of abortion, which is wrapped in politics and duct-taped with religion.

It is because of those last things, I think, that there's so much talking-past-each-other about the subject. I sometimes see a pro-choice commenter lament that if the issue could just be "framed correctly," everyone would wake up pro-choice tomorrow. But I'm not convinced it's entirely a question of framing and I'm not convinced better framing is the solution. Because what the framing argument does is kinda imply that the people who hold opposite viewpoints are merely stupid, and only need to be talked down to "at their levels" to attain enlightenment.

I would rather start with the assumption that it's an issue both sides have given a great deal of thought to, and that their convictions may in fact be inalterable, because only by accepting that your ideological opponent may NEVER concede your view do you acknowledge him or her as an equal.

I hold some views I am unlikely ever to change. I do not want to have discussions with people who think they can change those views with only the proper framing, anymore than they'd want to talk to me if I were to proceed from the same assumption.

>>I do not want to have discussions with people who think they can change those views with only the proper framing,

GAWD, me either. There's no way to re-frame the argument when you believe (know) even an embryo is a human life. And like you said, how on earth would I convince someone who doesn't think it's just tissue like a cyst, of anything to the contrary by "re-framing" it? I don't think of women who have abortions as evil; they just have very different views on what constitutes life.

But you know so many think it's pro-lifers trying to take something AWAY from them, deny them their "rights," when it's really quite simple and religion isn't always even part of it. Either you believe it's a life, or you don't, and you decide from there if it's ok to take that life or not. I say yes it is life, and no it's not OK. And I'm literally sick about abortion w/r/t rape and incest, because I couldn't imagine a woman being forced to bear a child from that. But it's still sacrificing a life, and that's VERY hard for me to accept--but the alternative is not an option.

>>their convictions may in fact be inalterable

I wish more people would accept that premise. There'd be a hell of a lot less screaming going on, and there might actually be a chance at finding actual solutions (i.e. cheaper, if not free birth control for those who can't afford it, easier access to it for teenagers, whatever).

>>>intellectually bankrupt and fraudulent feminism really is, or at least has been ever since it was hijacked by the left.

I wouldn't say FEMINISM is bankrupt, but it's definitely been hijacked by the left. There ARE genuine feminists on the right, but no Official Feminist, if you will, calls them "feminists." Of course you can't REALLY be a feminist if you're a warmongering supporter of the McBushitler Theocracy, right? :sigh:

People always say "why not birth control?" But what form of birth control is reliable 100% of the time?

Rape to point of engendering with no access to abortion has long been a means of waging war. Last used - to my knowledge - in the Bosnian/Serbian war in the Balkans. Rape camps were set up, women were repeatedly raped until it was certain they were pregnant and then they were released - with no support, their husbands/brothers dead - to deal the best they could. Or to die - women do die in childbirth when they have limited access to medical care.

""... Rape to point of engendering with no access to abortion has long been a means of waging war..."

Well, South Dakota *does* now have the Rapist's Rights law...

"Is it simply because the issue involves pregnancy, a predominantly female issue?"

Well, you know, it might be because women have always had abortions, no matter what the law says, and that illegal abortions tend to be more dangerous, so it kinda affects women's health more than men's ...

Or it could just be that while I think it's perfectly fine to consider abortion murder, I don't see how bans on abortion fit in with the current laws that fail to force parents to donate blood to dying children. Hell, simply forcing basic medical care on children themselves is controversial if such care goes against the parents' medical beliefs. I also don't see how rape exemptions fits into the mix. If the point is that abortion is murder, why does it matter how she got pregnant? It's not like one can claim self-defense - health exemptions make more sense in that light, and they're more controversial than rape exemptions.

I was once quite ambivilant about abortion, but over the past few years the arguments of bloggers who believe that "abortion is centtral to feminism" have convinced me to be otherwise. I do believe that many people think abortion should be illegal for reasons that are moral and consistent, I just don't think most people who think that abortion should be illegal think that way, and that their inconsistent arguements both mask and rely on the sexism that is still so pervasive. Pointing out the holes in their arguments is useful for fighting such sexism.

So, it's not that I think that abortion is central to feminism, but that I think that women having as much control over their bodies as men do is central to feminism, and the law and social norms, as they currently exist, allow men to retain bodily autonomy once they become parents, but don't do the same for women.

I fully recognize that abortion may not be an upright moral choice in some situations, and yet I fully support any woman's right to get one. The woman that gets the abortion has to deal with the morality of the situation, as does the man who got her pregnant (if he's even still around or knows about it) and the friends who support her.

Because it's just as immoral to not offer abortion to women.

I would love to live in a society where unmarried women could be pregnant and that would be fine. But I've rarely seen that be the case. Even married women get some flack nowadays for being "knocked up" and have all these "considerations" to make that make being pregnant a lot harder than actually having a baby to carry around nine months later.

A lot of people aren't happy for you if you are pregnant and unwed. A lot of people start wondering if you're going to quit your job, or school, if you are pregnant and unwed. You certainly are going to have more problems finding work in that situation, and just forget dating. Some guys find kids cute but a bump? Not so much.

Pregnancy can be TERRIFYING. Abortion is necessary not only because we have all these cases of rape and incest and god knows what else, but because we live in a society where pregnant women are looked upon as a little less human than they were pre-fetus. If we changed that, and made it more socialy acceptable (which isn't going to happen ANY time soon with the current religious climate around these parts) I think the number of abortions would go down.

The "Why don't you give it up for adoption?" argument just doesn't work when the pregnancy itself is the humiliating part. We think single moms who do their jobs well are heroes sometimes and that message has come across clear and strong. But you're still just a knocked up teenager who society says should feel ashamed until that point.