This is only tangentially related to this post, and I've been thinking about it all week without posting. Here goes.

The one thing I've noticed missing from this entire series of (interesting and thoughtful) posts is... a definition of what feminism is.

Pointing out straw feminists (and straw definitions of feminism) is good and proper, but I'm left wondering exactly what we (you) mean when you speak of feminism that is not straw-feminism.

(This is probably a function of my philosophical training and logic background; my position is that it's generally useless to debate something, especially an -ism, unless we're very clear up-front as to what it is we mean by the term.)

Since, as you've noted, feminism is the subject of so many varying and contradictory usages, maybe the best thing we could to to prevent straw-feminism is to define what the heck feminism Really Is?

Is it the platitudinous bumpersticker "radical notion that women are people"?

A more thoughtful "women and men are of equal value and law and institutions should reflect this"?

Some actually radical idea that relatively few people actually hold?

Until we have some sort of consensus as to what set of ideas feminism-the-word refers to, strawfeminism will naturally continue, in that nobody will be quite sure what anyone else means by the term, and if everyone has their own idea of what "feminism" means with no benchmark standards, it will be very difficult to meaningfully discuss it.

(Much like any other -ism of controversy, like communism or patriotism.

Is communism pure evil, fascism in the guise of Marx, or a noble idea ruined by "poor execution"? I lean *more* to the former, but people quite seriously hold both extremes, and without agreement as to what they mean [even if both of them have to choose a new term to avoid contaminating their semiotic space] they'll simply talk past one-another forever.

Likewise patriotism; is it noble love of country or despicable tribal jingo? People who take it to mean the former cannot communicate usefully on the subject with people who use it to mean the latter.)

"Until we have some sort of consensus as to what set of ideas feminism-the-word refers to, strawfeminism will naturally continue..."

Sigivald, I have to disagree with you here: as Ilyka points out in this post, the rhetorical purpose of the strawfeminist is to divert the conversation; like hyperbole in general, it is intentional, not a misunderstanding.

As far as "what 'feminism' means," I think you'll get as many definitions as there are feminists, and that those definitions relate to the reason each person considers her- or himself to be a feminist. There is a set of basic tenets (such as the idea that strict and binary gender roles are bad for both men and women, or the belief that equal pay for equal work would be only fair). However, there is also a great amount of divergence: what seems like a logical outgrowth of the basics to one person can seem outlandish to another, which is how you end up with porn-liberal and anti-porn feminists who nevertheless regard each other as feminists.

It's a type of -ism that I find quite comfortable, and it reminds me of my parents' church's motto: "In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity"

Ilyka, I hear ya. There seems to be a lot of willful ignorance about feminism.

But I would like to suggest two things.

First, I think you mischaracterize the situation from the view of men who fear feminism. You say "Most, if not all, of the rationale for the castrating strawfeminist's continued popularity is due to the misconception that there's some great equality pie out there, and if women have too many slices of it, there will be nothing left for men."

The issue isn't equality, it's about power. And power is most definately a zero-sum game. Power is defined by relations between people. It's impossible for both people to "gain power" at the same time in the same situation. The growth of feminism has curtailed the power of men. It has, simple as that.

Men cannot do some of the things their forefathers did, because the balance of power between the sexes has shifted. The power my great-grandfather could exercise over his wife and family was much greater than what I can exercise over mine.

Now, any man with one-quarter of a working brain or a hint of self-awareness understands that (a) what was "lost" was stuff we didn't really want anyway and (b) the new situation is better for everybody.

But, as I'm certain everyone here has noticed, there is a large segment of the world that lacks a quarter of a working brain or any self-awareness at all.

The other thing I think worth mentioning begins with a study done a few years back about monkey behavior. A set of monkeys were treated unequally: one set was given boring fruit, the other set was given much nicer fruit. The disadvantaged set complained loudly and acted angry. The advantaged set? They couldn't see what the problem was.

To recognize yourself as being in a position of unfair superiority is hard. To grow up hearing that men have unfair advantages, that one's position in life is, in no small part, unearned, is a hard, hard pill to swallow. When you're told this sort of thing, it takes conscious effort not to be resentful.

"What the hell?" says the little voice in my head. "Did I not work for everything I have? Did I not sacrifice, strain, and sweat to get here? Who are you to denigrate and cheapen what I've done? You don't know what I've done!"

(The answer to that gripe is yes, you worked hard, I'm not denigrating anything, and stop changing the damn subject.)

When a man has an unfair advantage he doesn't recognize, the leveling of the playing field looks to him like he's being taken advantage of. Dumb, yes, but that's what he sees.

Also, separating one's personal experiences from the world at large can be more than some folks can handle. Take, for example, a man who's had a string of female teachers, authority figures, and bosses in his life. He won't instinctively grasp that women aren't dominant in society. In his experience, they certainly are. He has to be taught otherwise, and if he's pigheaded by nature, it won't stick.

Making the leap from your own life to the larger world...well, most people can do it. But a lot can't.

None of this excuses dipstick behavior. But I think understanding the dipstick from the dipstick's point of view can only help.

Maybe all of this is obvious, or you've hashed it out a zillion times on this blog. I don't know.

Am I making any kind of sense here?

/unbans self

The power my great-grandfather could exercise over his wife and family was much greater than what I can exercise over mine.

I never have understood why a man would want that power in the first place, unless what he wants is not so much a "family" as a fiefdom of obedient subjects.

To recognize yourself as being in a position of unfair superiority is hard. To grow up hearing that men have unfair advantages, that one's position in life is, in no small part, unearned, is a hard, hard pill to swallow. When you're told this sort of thing, it takes conscious effort not to be resentful.

That makes every bit of sense, Harvey; thank you. I confess, though, that I usually see this as simply not my problem. I don't know a good "middle way" between telling a guy "tough shit, fella, that 'power' was never yours to begin with" and trying to be all kinds of placating: "There, there, I'm really sorry I stepped on your privilege."

Neither choice is a good option, so I guess I go with (c), just ignore 'em. Let sleeping dudes-with-issues lie, I guess.

"I never have understood why a man would want that power in the first place, unless what he wants is not so much a "family" as a fiefdom of obedient subjects. Sad to say, some do. It's depressing.

As far as it not being your problem, absolutely. Completely. It isn't. It's their damn problem.

The reason I commented was that I find when you're arguing with somebody, it helps if you know where they're coming from. When I debate politics, it helps to know how the other side sees itself, and why it believes what it does.

That makes it a lot easier to completely dismantle them in arguments. If you can show a doofus exactly how he's being a doofus in his own language, well...the look on the doofus's face as recognition dawns is f'n priceless.

Just another weapon in the arsenal, yo.

I've never had an issue due to the lack of my own personal choice to get pregnant. I did lots and lots of c-sections back in my surgery days and I was in the pilot seat for the births of my own three boys. The whole thing is just gross no matter what location the spawn emerges from. So - no womb envy from me.

I am a bit jealous about the boobs though.

Maybe the people beating you with the castrating strawfeminist would like to have a conversation with a person of that kind. The problem, perhaps, is that you are remarkably less interesting to talk to than the castrating strawfeminist. I do not think women who are like the castrating strawfeminist are evil -- though I suspect I would tend not to agree with them -- but I do think they are more interesting, entertaining, and charismatic than women who complain about being beaten by the castrating strawfeminist. In fact, I only came to this site because I thought it had been written by a feminist like the "castrating strawfeminist" you so despise, and was quite displeased to discover it wasn't written by one. Frankly, the sites those women write are amusing, shocking, thoughtful, and provocative. It seems most people agree, as the many more comments on such pages are much more copious. It is remarkable how envious you are of feminists who are more feminist than you, so much so that you would go so far to claim they lack valid existence and only exist in invalid forms of argumentation. So, my question is this: Why do you hate other women so much?

Boy, guys sure get weird when they're all alone in the big city at 11 o'clock on a Saturday night. They do all kinds of stuff that don't make no sense, like spend over 20 minutes reading blogs that bore them.

I certainly do feel bad for those fellas.

I love it when they come in, drop a bomb, and utterly prove your Strawfeminist argument.

I believe the expression for that is, "Too clever by half."

Wow. The Evil Elf in my brain translated "John Smith's" comment thusly...

"Why aren't you a shrieking bomb-throwing man-hater so I can get my jollies by getting all mad at you, and then afterwards I can relax and dismiss you as a bitter crank?

"Why do you have to be reasonable, make sense, and point out sad truths? Why can't you be a silly cartoon and stop complicated my world? Without vitriol, bluster, and easily-defined dualities, I get bored! Why are you taking away the fun from yelling really loud about sexism?"

That's what I read, anyway.

Wotta toolbox.

I love it when they come in, drop a bomb, and utterly prove your Strawfeminist argument.

It's called irony. But thanks for assuming it wasn't done on tongue-in-cheek.

i am a 22 year old male and im proud to be male. i can tell you for a fact that there are many feminists who do want to castrate men and even believe the government should make it a law. i have even heard women tell me directly that boys should be steralized at birth. women (feminists have the problem today, not men. men do not seek to opress women and cheat on them and all the other nonsense that we all hear on tv, magazines and movies. i would rather die than live in a feminist society where i am a worthless male, subject to cruel jokes and unfair laws.

i have little respect for women no because they have no respect for me, my body and my needs. i was even taught by a feminist teacher at college who tried her very best to make me fail my studies. she insulted men everyday, spoke of castration and gave advantages to the girls in my class because i was the only male. women do not respect men the same way men respect women today. i used to come home from class feeling ashamed and worthless and i know that is what she wanted.

i live in the UK and there are so many inequalities between men and women and men are now suffering far worse. i always hear men defend women, but hardly ever do i hear women defend mens rights. its every man for him self as far as im concerned and i know that nobody in society will help me when it comes to getting a job and making a living.

men are treated like dirt and i feel it badly. i just want a normal life with a family i can love and not have to worry about being turned away from a job because they would rather give it to a woman, who might not even be as qualified as i am. the truth is im scared and i feel that im not wanted and no woman gives a shit because im a lesser being than she is